Special Events and Lower Payout Percentages on Machines

DH and I were discussing this after we left the Charlie Daniels Band concert at Cactus Petes and would like other opinions on this subject. I know that is has probably been discussed before, but I can't find the threads.

When casinos have a captive audience, i.e. patrons of the events they host, does anyone think that they lower the percentage payouts of the machines? Especially, if the casino is in the middle of nowhere (Jackpot, NV) and you really don't have that many choices of where to play and they have a full house (sold out).

After our crushing defeat and we started walking around waiting for our take-out late dinner order, we really started paying attention to the people playing (their mood, body language), the machines, and credits on the monitors - no one was really winning!!! There were a few that would get credits, but the atmosphere was pretty low key - not a lot of squealing, clapping hands, or excitement. And during the whole time we were playing, NO announcement of handpays. I thought that was weird as they always announce those to get folks all excited.

Anyway, any comments or enlightenment???????

I think the casinos can program the machines to do what they want them to do when they want them to do it. As long as the end results are within an acceptable range that the regulators allow its business as usual for them.

I think SMR just nailed it. The money to pay for those events comes from the player.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. I think there are some systems that can be changed at the drop of the hat. However, from what I've noticed at all my locals. If they want to change the percentage on the machine they have to physically do it from the machine itself which takes a lot of time and effort. So I don't think it's black and white. I think it depends on where...Again though, in my experience at events and such...no change is made.

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Originally Posted by SoCalRob

I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. I think there are some systems that can be changed at the drop of the hat. However, from what I've noticed at all my locals. If they want to change the percentage on the machine they have to physically do it from the machine itself which takes a lot of time and effort. So I don't think it's black and white. I think it depends on where...Again though, in my experience at events and such...no change is made.

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@SoCalRob. I totally agree. They all have some kind of oversight as well. In Nevada they have the Nevada Gaming Comission and I very highly doubt it's OK to just arbitrarily change payout percentages any time they feel like they're going to have a larger than average crowd due to an event.

Ang

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Originally Posted by SoCalRob

I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. I think there are some systems that can be changed at the drop of the hat. However, from what I've noticed at all my locals. If they want to change the percentage on the machine they have to physically do it from the machine itself which takes a lot of time and effort. So I don't think it's black and white. I think it depends on where...Again though, in my experience at events and such...no change is made.

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I wish we had a slot programmer on our forum so we would know for sure but I can't help but think that when they have free car giveaways, 10X reward credit multipliers, huge weekend events, the casinos plan for these these things far enough ahead of time and build them into the algorithms so that they can achieve an expected profit for that particular time frame and still satisfy the people that regulate them.

While he's not a slot programmer. I'm fairly certain @dproxima knows a lot about this subject. He's talked about it a few times on Slot Talk on Youtube.

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Originally Posted by SoCalRob

While he's not a slot programmer. I'm fairly certain @dproxima knows a lot about this subject. He's talked about it a few times on Slot Talk on Youtube.

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Maybe if you know how to get hold of him you can ask him too chime in.

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

I wish we had a slot programmer on our forum so we would know for sure but I can't help but think that when they have free car giveaways, 10X reward credit multipliers, huge weekend events, the casinos plan for these these things far enough ahead of time and build them into the algorithms so that they can achieve an expected profit for that particular time frame and still satisfy the people that regulate them.

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It sounds paranoid to me. I think machines pay the way they pay no matter whats going on at the casino. I can honestly say at least at my local Harrah's when it's 15x it seems like handpays and machine pays are the same as the day prior when it isn't. I know we want to be able to blame the casino for the lack of play on our dollars, but sometimes I think that's just dumb luck. It's part of gambling. Machines, even if there are 1k to 2k of them on a floor, aren't always going to be paying out. My two cents. I could be entirely wrong. Casinos were originally built on criminal activity...so who knows?!

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

Maybe if you know how to get hold of him you can ask him too chime in.

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I messaged him on facebook. We will see if he gets a chance to chime in!

I think all of are a little paranoid and superstitious when it comes to our comings and goings at the casino. Some people claim they have the ability to hear a machine calling their name etc. In the end it is all about luck and I really do think there are some people that are just luckier than others. And then again, that could just be the paranoid gambler in me coming out.

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

I think all of are a little paranoid and superstitious when it comes to our comings and goings at the casino. Some people claim they have the ability to hear a machine calling their name etc. In the end it is all about luck and I really do think there are some people that are just luckier than others. And then again, that could just be the paranoid gambler in me coming out.

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I completely agree! There are a lot of people that seem to have all of the luck! If only there was a way to spread it around...

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Originally Posted by SoCalRob

I completely agree! There are a lot of people that seem to have all of the luck! If only there was a way to spread it around...

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I got a feeling just now you are getting a hp in Tahoe now I'm not alway's right but most of the time I am ask @Mimi

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Originally Posted by foamy

I got a feeling just now you are getting a hp in Tahoe now I'm not alway's right but most of the time I am ask @Mimi

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Here's the deal Foamy. If I get a hand pay in Tahoe, I'm gonna pay it forward and give you a hundie.

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Originally Posted by slotjunkie

DH and I were discussing this after we left the Charlie Daniels Band concert at Cactus Petes and would like other opinions on this subject. I know that is has probably been discussed before, but I can't find the threads.

When casinos have a captive audience, i.e. patrons of the events they host, does anyone think that they lower the percentage payouts of the machines? Especially, if the casino is in the middle of nowhere (Jackpot, NV) and you really don't have that many choices of where to play and they have a full house (sold out).

After our crushing defeat and we started walking around waiting for our take-out late dinner order, we really started paying attention to the people playing (their mood, body language), the machines, and credits on the monitors - no one was really winning!!! There were a few that would get credits, but the atmosphere was pretty low key - not a lot of squealing, clapping hands, or excitement. And during the whole time we were playing, NO announcement of handpays. I thought that was weird as they always announce those to get folks all excited.

Anyway, any comments or enlightenment???????

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I've witnessed this myself several times at my local casino - where there is little competition for them. I've gone during their promo periods when they were having a certain amount of free play giveaways every hour (but to qualify you need to have your players card inserted in a slot machine). I don't see any winners or handpays during these times either. The majority of what I see are a bunch of grumpy slot players. Once after I realized that this seemed to be the norm during their giveaway promo's and for what else I'm about to tell you are the reasons why I stopped going to them. There is no way of telling if the picking procedure of a winner is being done fairly. There were a couple of times (during different promo events) that I would notice the same name(s) as a week or 2 before being called again. The first thing that came to my mind was, are these "ghost" (fake) names or "preferred players" (friends) being called?

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Originally Posted by SoCalRob

I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. I think there are some systems that can be changed at the drop of the hat. However, from what I've noticed at all my locals. If they want to change the percentage on the machine they have to physically do it from the machine itself which takes a lot of time and effort. So I don't think it's black and white. I think it depends on where...Again though, in my experience at events and such...no change is made.

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Agree with you! I don't think they are going to go in a reprogram all or most of the machines. That takes time. I think the reason it seems like more people are losing is because there are more people.

Then there is the superstition that when you play with your card in the machine you're not going to win. Like your card says oh we do not want this person to win versus anonymous player has an even chance to win. Do you ever feel like this is happening to you ?


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Casinos don't go and re-program the machines just for those days, most of them can't or don't have the technology to do so. The only exception are the few that are fully server based, and right now only the Cosmopolitan and Aria are (and maybe a few new ones that have opened such as the SLS but I don't know on those for sure). Most other states don't even allow server based gaming yet, and even areas that do, the casino needs to overhaul their entire slot inventory which is very expensive.

At the non-server based casinos, they would have to go in and take the chips out of every slot, re-program them, then do it again just to set it back the next day. It just doesn't happen. (I can't speak for the class 2 casinos in places like Oklahoma, where they are bingo games disguised as slots, so who knows there, I have no idea).

I have won and lost myself on the drawing days, point multipliers, etc. It's still just luck.

Now in a small market like Jackpot, NV where there is little competition, its likely that most of their machines are just set really tight anyway, so it was likely there that no one was winning then, or ever. I don't think the next morning the casino would be paying out any more.

I do have a theory though on this.
one is that the casino is busier, so more people are losing- although I have also seen more big jackpots when it's really busy too. Just more people playing.

The other, is that when it is really busy, I find myself playing machines I don't normally play, or machines I don't like, or I'll stay on a machine that is losing longer rather than just moving on. This causes me to lose a lot more. At my locals I have my regular games that seem to play well, that I usually play. When it's busy sometimes I can't play any of them, and find myself on something else and play just to play something.

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Originally Posted by Darrell from WI

Then there is the superstition that when you play with your card in the machine you're not going to win. Like your card says oh we do not want this person to win versus anonymous player has an even chance to win. Do you ever feel like this is happening to you ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I used to think this, and see people pull out their cards all the time and say that it helps them win. Once I learned this would violate the casinos gaming license, I stopped worrying about it. All my jackpots have been with my card in.

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Originally Posted by kdk

Casinos don't go and re-program the machines just for those days, most of them can't or don't have the technology to do so. The only exception are the few that are fully server based, and right now only the Cosmopolitan and Aria are (and maybe a few new ones that have opened such as the SLS but I don't know on those for sure). Most other states don't even allow server based gaming yet, and even areas that do, the casino needs to overhaul their entire slot inventory which is very expensive.

At the non-server based casinos, they would have to go in and take the chips out of every slot, re-program them, then do it again just to set it back the next day. It just doesn't happen. (I can't speak for the class 2 casinos in places like Oklahoma, where they are bingo games disguised as slots, so who knows there, I have no idea).

I have won and lost myself on the drawing days, point multipliers, etc. It's still just luck.

Now in a small market like Jackpot, NV where there is little competition, its likely that most of their machines are just set really tight anyway, so it was likely there that no one was winning then, or ever. I don't think the next morning the casino would be paying out any more.

I do have a theory though on this.
one is that the casino is busier, so more people are losing- although I have also seen more big jackpots when it's really busy too. Just more people playing.

The other, is that when it is really busy, I find myself playing machines I don't normally play, or machines I don't like, or I'll stay on a machine that is losing longer rather than just moving on. This causes me to lose a lot more. At my locals I have my regular games that seem to play well, that I usually play. When it's busy sometimes I can't play any of them, and find myself on something else and play just to play something.

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Sorry @kdk but I am going to agree to disagree with you on one very important point. I've been following and doing research on SBG in casino's for the past 7 years or so. I have a friend that works for a big electrical contractor that was contracted to do all of the electrical wiring for a lot of these newer built casino's East of the Mississippi. As most everyone knows, nearly all of the casino's outside of Nevada and AC were built within the past 10 or 12 years. My friend had told me that when they were building these casino's that they had installed all of the appropriate wiring that's needed for a server based gaming system in every new casino that they were contracted for. Just a note: The Indian casino's were the first to have and use SBG in their casino's beginning in the late 90's because they didn't need or require any gov't approval : )

Slotbender, I take it you are not playing in any SBG casino built in the last 10 - 12 years? Where do you play now?

When I went on the WMS/SG tour in April they explained it a little better to us. They sell/lease their machines with a certain range of payout percentages in steps, like 85-87-89-91-93. Those steps are the only choices the casinos have and in Las Vegas if the casino is server based they are able to change the payout percentage whenever they want BUT they can't do it while someone has money in the machine and the machine has to go down for 15 minutes while the change is made. The casinos that are not server based, they actually have to go in a change the settings individually and that of course takes time. Either way there's paperwork that has to be filled out and signed and filed, etc. So, while it may be easier at server based locations, there are still rules they have to follow.

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Originally Posted by Mauretania

Slotbender, I take it you are not playing in any SBG casino built in the last 10 - 12 years? Where do you play now?

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I still play, but I play vp mostly. I will only play vp on the older IGT's though. These newer versions of vp machines like Ultimate X, etc., have become like regular slot machines with chances of hitting a variation of multipliers (at extra costs) that can be easily controlled by the central computer (I don't trust them). There are times that I will play (low to medium roll) some regular slot machines just for "shits-n-giggles" but I won't go overboard on them : )

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Originally Posted by kolonialone

When I went on the WMS/SG tour in April they explained it a little better to us. They sell/lease their machines with a certain range of payout percentages in steps, like 85-87-89-91-93. Those steps are the only choices the casinos have and in Las Vegas if the casino is server based they are able to change the payout percentage whenever they want BUT they can't do it while someone has money in the machine and the machine has to go down for 15 minutes while the change is made. The casinos that are not server based, they actually have to go in a change the settings individually and that of course takes time. Either way there's paperwork that has to be filled out and signed and filed, etc. So, while it may be easier at server based locations, there are still rules they have to follow.

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Just a heads-up: In the rules and regulations (and they only seem to talk about) are the restrictions and allowances of when the casino's can/can't change payback %'s on a slot machine. Please keep in mind that this setting is for the machines performance for over the "long term" (millions of spins). But there is one thing that they don't mention in the rules & regulations (nor do they talk about) are the "volatility" settings. With SBG the "volatility" settings can be adjusted on a slot machine via the central computer in an instant with a click of the mouse. The "volatility" of a game being set high, medium, or low, will allow or dis-allow winning combinations to hit on a slot machine during "short term" play. Just food for thought : )

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Originally Posted by slotbender

Just a heads-up: In the rules and regulations (and they only seem to talk about) are the restrictions and allowances of when the casino's can/can't change payback %'s on a slot machine. Please keep in mind that this setting is for the machines performance for over the "long term" (millions of spins). But there is one thing that they don't mention in the rules & regulations (nor do they talk about) are the "volatility" settings. With SBG the "volatility" settings can be adjusted on a slot machine via the central computer in an instant with a click of the mouse. The "volatility" of a game being set high, medium, or low, will allow or dis-allow winning combinations to hit on a slot machine during "short term" play. Just food for thought : )

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Yeah they wouldn't talk about volatility on the machines. :) I would assume though the same rules apply to SBG where they can't change anything while a player has money in the machine, or else they're changing the game while it's being played. It would seem the regulators in Nevada would frown on that.

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Originally Posted by kolonialone

Yeah they wouldn't talk about volatility on the machines. :) I would assume though the same rules apply to SBG where they can't change anything while a player has money in the machine, or else they're changing the game while it's being played. It would seem the regulators in Nevada would frown on that.

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My opinion is that you can't assume anything when it comes to money. There's a good reason why there is never a mention about volatility in any State's rules & regulations concerning SBG. It's an intentional "loophole" in the law that allows casino's to improve their bottom line (which also increases the gov'ts. cut). They're all in cahoots to make more $$.

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Originally Posted by slotbender

Sorry @kdk but I am going to agree to disagree with you on one very important point. I've been following and doing research on SBG in casino's for the past 7 years or so. I have a friend that works for a big electrical contractor that was contracted to do all of the electrical wiring for a lot of these newer built casino's East of the Mississippi. As most everyone knows, nearly all of the casino's outside of Nevada and AC were built within the past 10 or 12 years. My friend had told me that when they were building these casino's that they had installed all of the appropriate wiring that's needed for a server based gaming system in every new casino that they were contracted for. Just a note: The Indian casino's were the first to have and use SBG in their casino's beginning in the late 90's because they didn't need or require any gov't approval : )

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It's okay- I just know a lot of jurisdictions don't allow SBG yet. Pennsylvania is the only other I have been able to find that allows it besides NV.
Many newer casinos may be wired for it, which makes a lot of sense, it is the future in the gaming world. That doesn't mean they have it though. i can't speak for everywhere, but I know that it is not legal in Arizona's casinos yet- the compact between the tribes and the state would have to be revised in order for that to happen.
In addition, once the state laws even allow SBG, they also would have to have a regulation on changing the paybacks, and how often, etc. Nevada has specific laws to that, I don't know about other states.
Also, I can tell if a casino might have SBG or if it definitely doesn't. Play in Vegas at Aria or Cosmopolitan and you can tell- all the games have screens that can change, and even show your players card info on the slot screen. Older casinos can't do it, like at the CET properties, most of the games are still in the old cabinets that have just one specific game on them.

I do think though within 10 years or so nearly all casinos will have SBG... and it is likely we'll see the paybacks messed with more unfortunately.

I personally think they change the payouts according to events. Major drawings, and concert nights are terrible. The machines pay nothing. If I go at off times I do better. Any machine that scrolls advertisements, and announcements must be able to be controlled by the computerized system, so I think they can change them to payout at their discretion. Just my thoughts.